Computers and Writing Working Group
Fall 2000 Virtual Colloquium Series
Session log
Christy Sheffield Sanford
Writer in residence
trAce online community
[log started Sun Nov 19 17:08:12 2000 EST]
Participants: christys, epittman, Bradley, ange, jrice, tharpold, jpl, and glue
Bradley turns the colloquium recorder on.
Bradley clicks.
christys says, ""
tharpold says, "Christy, maybe you could follow up on B's question, with a general observation about the function of communities like trAce in digital writing?"
christys says, "The workshop did function as a peer review experience. Everyone came in with different skills, someone would know something that someone else needed to know. We shared a great deal of tech information. One of my roles was to find information, if I didn't know the answer I usually knew who to approach or where to find it. There was a syllabus and each week we discussed different topics. This is all still available online. Due to the time zone problem, live meetings were less than satisfactory. What worked best was a list. Most people were very generous and constructive. An address would be posted to the list and group members would visit and post to the list. Art, writing, theatrical elements, technology--all were part of the critiques. "
Bradley says, "Yeah, time can be a problem. Are the people in trAce spread out?"
christys says, "Sorry, Terry, I had some opportunity to write the ans. earlier and so just learning how to quickly dump. Seems a bit canned."
christys says, "I am naturally biased in favor of trAce-like communities "
christys says, "Probably Sue Thomas with her great attitude has a lot to do with the success of trAce"
Bradley says, "Is it a very collective enterprise?"
christys says, "She s interested in all things new and has room for a diverse group."
christys says, "Highly collective, Sue collects people from all countries. The discussion area is highly active"
jrice say, "one thing I had noticed back when I first looked at trace was the "is hypertext dead question...what was the need to ask the question? is it too early to ask such questions? there have been other places where these questions are being asked..."
christys says, "That was a question from Helen Whitehead who actually works for trAce, she loves hypertext, but here question was"
christys says, "more to do with text-only, is a text-only project dead."
jrice say, "this is Robert Coover's question as well..."
christys says, "Our group was composed of a biased sample, many people were already artists."
Bradley smiles.
tharpold [to jrice]: Exactly, I was just thinking of Coover.
ange isn't sure she understands the notion of text-only anything being "dead."
jrice say, "seems part of the nostalgia for the early hypertext systems that were only text based"
Bradley nods at ange.
christys says, "Again, I think people tend to impose their preferences on others."
christys says, "Coover may be fearful; there is no reason to fear the demise of text!"
ange nodsnods.
jrice say, "your work, in particular, is rich in both text and multimedia..."
tharpold says, "The argument about "dead text", I've argued in several places, misunderstands the material performance of textual representation."
Bradley says, "Yeah, reports of text's death has been exaggerated..."
jrice [to tharpold]: which returns us to some of the email discussion on modernist poetry
christys says, "God, film and the author all dead--all alive and well."
Bradley says, "not to mention that text has design, color, graphical elements in its arrangement"
tharpold says, "There is a rich tradition of art and theory re. concrete poetry, textual experimentation -- yes, precisely the Modernist tradition -- whose relevance to the screen has barely been tapped."
christys says, "Yes, and I was thinking last night before sleep about layout"
christys says, "Layout usually associated with advertisting but I think of it as demonstrating patterns of thought."
ange says, "it also fails to consider your point in "roots," christy, about the need for artist/writers to theorize the dieas that inspire their work. otherwise we're stuck w/ an empty flux of gimmicks"
christys says, "A neglected area."
Bradley [to christys]: like the stacking (layered?) boxes in your project -- I'd consider that 'text only'
christys says, "Yes, but color coded :-)"
[ 5:18 pm ]
christys says, "Also visual, things stacked, that is the layout. And YOU can change it."
christys says, "You can actually make it disappear, drag it off the screen."
Bradley did!
Bradley says, "X made a new window for it then the window went away"
jrice really liked the effect of the drag drop text
christys says, "Yeah, that was fun and two other people have already used the script. I love that."
christys says, "I love it when something travels."
Bradley says, "I often wonder why contemporary browser technology is so bad at dealing with text"
jrice [to Bradley]: for example..
Bradley says, "I guess part of that is the HTML standard melee"
tharpold says, "In this vein, I would say something like, the key is to apprehending the function of "text" in these artifacts is to see the textual signifiers as *material* forms, strictly homologous in that sense with the "graphic" elements."
tharpold [to Bradley]: Because the CS folks have so little understanding of the typographic tradition.
christys says, "Homologous?"
ange [to tharpold]: in a medieval kind of way...?
Bradley says, "try selecting some text in any browser... it's death"
jpl arrives.
epittman loads the slide pittman in the projector.
Bradley waves to jpl.
christys says, "Hi, jpl"
jpl waves back
christys backflips
Bradley hasn't seen NS6 but imagines it's not a lot better
jrice [to Bradley]: on rhizome it's being trashed
Bradley nods.
tharpold [to ange]: Do you mean, as in illuminated text?
christys says, "Noooo, Margie Luesebring wrote me today it is terrible."
jrice say, "i wasn't happy with the beta either"
christys says, "Luesebrink"
tharpold says, "The word on the street I've read is that NS6 is a complete nightmare."
Bradley says, "but to move a bit more closely to the second part of my question..."
christys says, "Margie says it cant follow Dreamweaver."
Bradley [to christys]: I'd like to hear more about how trAce effects what you are doing.
christys says, "Margie says it doesnt support dhmtl! How can this be?"
Bradley says, "Wow"
jrice [to christys]: maybe also how you dealt with such a large group of people from different backgrounds
christys says, "Bradley, did you get a chance to see that chunk of text I dumped at the beginning."
Bradley says, "Yes, but the recorder didn't -- dump it again if you would."
ange [to tharpold]: yes, i was thinking of illuminations, those gorgeous alphabets alive w/ figures and flora and fauna...
christys says, "One was was that we all began using Dreamweaver and dhtml without realizing we were doing it. That was in the workshop."
christys says, "Ok"
christys says, "The workshop did function as a peer review experience. Everyone came in with different skills, someone would know something that someone else needed to know. We shared a great deal of tech information. One of my roles was to find information, if I didn't know the answer I usually knew who to approach or where to find it. There was a syllabus and each week we discussed different topics. This is all still available online. Due to the time zone problem, live meetings were less than satisfactory. What worked best was a list. Most people were very generous and constructive. An address would be posted to the list and group members would visit and post to the list. Art, writing, theatrical elements, technology--all were part of the critiques. "
christys says, "http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sanford/overview.html"
christys says, "Still reading, Erica"
jrice say, "was this the trAce event Mark Amerika became a curator of?"
[ 5:28 pm ]
christys says, "No, I was the curator"
Bradley says, "Is the structure formalized, or do workshops and the like sort of happen? I'm wondering how much comes from the directors and how much is automatic (for lack of a better term)."
christys says, "I had the privilege of designing my own workshop as I was the first!"
epittman says, "since we've already started to talk about the materiality of text, i might as well put my question up now because it's similar"
glue arrives.
jrice waves
epittman shows slide 4 on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I m interested in some of the tensions implied by this idea of
marrying the visual with the literary. I approach this question
more from the perspective of performance, choreography and
installation art than from a literary background. It seems to me
that there s a materiality (here I mean literal matter) involved
in these mediums that seems to demand a decidedly different
cognitive reception from their audiences they confront us withan object, an irruption into more literally symbolic modes of
discourse.
(I write hastily) What I was wondering was this: It seems to me
that things like dhtml, and flash provide an opportunity to
create web-specific art that engages this quality of performative
irruption signification that works in a different way from boththe visual and the literary, but that somehow engages this
problem of object-ness and performance. I think this relates to
the idea of embodiment that jane brought up in one of her
posts. I was wondering if/how you might have thought about these
ideas in some of your work.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
ange waves to glue.
Bradley nods at epittman.
christys says, "Your question bears on something I wrote about Jane s question."
tharpold [to ange]: One of the characteristics of textual practice which has been largely lost (to most readers, to a tradition of reading for which letters are mere indices of "concepts," and book mere "bags of words" (a lovely phrase from Ulises Carrion)) in the transition from scribal to typographic culture is: consciousness of the plasticity, the resistant materiality of the letter. Much easier for the casual reader to locate that in the illuminated MS than in the conventional printed text -- conventional in our time.
christys says, "The performative qualities of Flash. I love Flash but it seems almost like a performance in itself."
christys says, "Many people still dont know you can zoom those little Flash films."
jrice say, "or when will flash go beyond animation (the cartoon) or introduction to web sites..."
christys says, "There can be quite a bit of interactivity with Flash but creators tend not to do much with that. Except for greeting cards."
christys says, "Greeting cards from Blue Mountain are quite interactive."
jrice say, "and some games I've seen"
tharpold nods to glue
christys says, "I have a problem with Flash being the principal program."
Bradley [to christys]: Do you mean Flash is very different than the sort of hypertext you create? Or that it's separate from other stuff?
glue nods around and then off
Bradley pokes glue.
christys says, "I love it but it seems like you have to enter a door to reach it. It like VMRL is somewhat remote."
glue say, "yikes"
christys says, "I have used Flash but tried to integrate it into the page."
jrice say, "Flash seems to set off hypertext purists b/c of its potential to just be television (not that I have anything against TV)"
christys says, "Still, Ive seen some beautiful Flash projects--Clare Dinsmore just showed me one for frAme"
ange [to tharpold]: but there's still an element of that plasticity in typography... i once took a course in hand typesetting (yes, drawers and drawers of sorts) and was fascinated by the subtleties of leading and spacing, how one could shape and reshape the resonance of word by manipulating these elements...
christys says, "Well, Flash will probably be supplanted by real films, but hopefully they will retain something of the web qualities."
Bradley says, "Flash will definitely be supplanted by something if it stays in the intro-to-web-sites box"
christys says, "I like it so much in a small window"
glue wonders if you've already talked about "the matrix" understanding of web space (re: your interesting comments about dhtml)
tharpold [to ange]: Absolutely. The practice of letterpress is one of those which makes the plasticity of letterforms evident. I would just say that, for most consumers and producers of text, that material, embodied aspect of the letter is obscured by contemporary practices of type.
christys says, "No, but we missed Ericas question."
epittman says, "shall i re-show the slide?"
christys says, "Erica, did we get at it somewhat?"
glue say, "the slide!"
christys says, "sure"
epittman shows slide 4 on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I m interested in some of the tensions implied by this idea of
marrying the visual with the literary. I approach this question
more from the perspective of performance, choreography and
installation art than from a literary background. It seems to me
that there s a materiality (here I mean literal matter) involved
in these mediums that seems to demand a decidedly different
cognitive reception from their audiences they confront us withan object, an irruption into more literally symbolic modes of
discourse.
(I write hastily) What I was wondering was this: It seems to me
that things like dhtml, and flash provide an opportunity to
create web-specific art that engages this quality of performative
irruption signification that works in a different way from boththe visual and the literary, but that somehow engages this
problem of object-ness and performance. I think this relates to
the idea of embodiment that jane brought up in one of her
posts. I was wondering if/how you might have thought about these
ideas in some of your work.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
christys says, "I dont quite understand objectness and performance."
epittman says, "partly, i know i'm speaking paradoxically -- trying to bridge that gap between plastic object (like ange and tharpold's type) and web is difficult"
[ 5:38 pm ]
christys says, "Just keep talking"
jrice say, "scripts use objects"
tharpold [to ange]: Actually, I would change "plasticity" in the previous statement to "resistant materiality" -- one of the really exciting things for me in the case of letterpress is how *limited* the range of sizes of type are, how the possibilities of order and disorder are structured, predetermined in ways which are not evident, by the constraints of lead and ink.
christys says, "Do you mean that Flash is more than image and text, the effect of it?"
Bradley [to jrice]: Well, but that's kind of a different way of thinking about object than as in like an art-object
epittman says, "yes -- jrice gives a good example -- i'm thinking of object as something that does -- that gets in the way of transparent meaning and complicates/extends it."
christys says, "Because of its choreogrpahic qualities?"
Bradley says, "oop"
jrice [to Bradley]: yes but the word "object" can be played with here, no?
christys says, "I keep thinking of the error message you get on editors: style is not an object."
glue sees an analogy between...
epittman says, "another way to think of this for me would involve the dichotomy between literary approaches to drama and theatrical approaches -- in lit. departments we want to read the text, in theatre departments they want us to concentrate on what happens...."
ange [to tharpold]: true. if handtypsetting a text doesn't teach you something about resistant materiality, nothing will. and yet, as i was learning the craft, i was more impressed by the infinitely fine adjustments required to produce something that looks so facile and machinic. all those constraints were, to me then, not nearly constraining enough! and yet the shape of the composing stick itself determines everything about how text can be represesnted...
glue say, "between web composition and the scores for experimental music that leave the performance up to the musician. "
glue say, "the website as something to do not something to read"
christys says, "And Erica, which do you prefer?"
epittman says, "how could web-writing or multimedia be conceived of as something that _happens_ more than it signifies textually"
jrice say, "Those musicians also borrow past styles to continue the improv...the same option exists on the web"
epittman says, "of course -- i'm thinking of how it is that _text itself_ happens as well..."
tharpold [to ange]: The composing stick would make a nice metaphor for the hidden constraints of textual practice -- that is, hidden in, but still efficient on, the forms which are consumed in reading.
Bradley [to jrice]: In that sense, object exists, but it's not artifact because it's iterable
ange [to tharpold]: yes! it would.
christys says, "Interesting this counterpoint. Is there a way to bring them together, these two discussions?"
glue say, "juxtaposition"
epittman [to glue]: yes -- web as something that happens -- and the music analogy is perfect here
Bradley pulls on the brim of his hat.
ange says, "hmmmmm... i've been holding off on the flash discussion bcs i *do* tend to use it in noninteractive ways . . ."
glue [to epittman]: those scores are visualizations, full of drawings and diagrams, OPEN in the fullest sense of the word
christys says, "Erica, are you working with Flash?"
epittman [to christys]: it's less a matter for me of preferring one to another so much as i'm concerned with how these gaps might be bridged -- this is one of the points for thinking in truly interdisciplinary ways
ange says, "and yet my experience of it is that it does become an object in itself, and my reading of it is then (forced to be) interactive in ways that interest me..."
christys says, "Im trying to see this gap."
ange says, "so while i'm not asking readers to manipulate things on the screen in my flash stuff, i'm anticipating, hoping, that the flash itself will be engaging them in manipulations of reading"
[ 5:48 pm ]
jrice [to ange]: then what does flash do differently than any other reading experience open to manipulation?
ange says, "object lessons, i guess. :-)"
christys says, "Do you know about the zoom, ange?"
ange says, "well, it's able to work w/ justaposition and layering, but what i esp like is the timeline, being able to synch things"
epittman [to christys]: not much yet, although i'm trying to find time to...
ange [to christys]: i know about it, but i haven't really done much w/ it... tell me more
christys says, "Every little Flash film you can zoom on it."
ange says, "and the zooming... speeds you through it?"
ange says, "or brings you closer?"
christys says, "What you see on your screen you can zoom bigger and bigger!"
ange says, "oh, yes! i do this on the stage when i'm working..."
christys says, "On PC, Windows, the menu appears with a right click."
christys says, "On the Mac, it is different. Quite amazing."
Bradley says, "but that zoom can be turned off, right?"
christys says, "You can zoom back to normal."
christys says, "But you can also move the image around with a little hand that appears."
christys says, "Its not intuitive, most people miss that interactivity in flash."
glue [to christys]: my question about browser as "space" might fit here...
Bradley says, "I thought the author of a flashlet can compile in a way that prevents zoom and some of the other stuff"
christys says, "Ange, no, not on the stage on the regular web page!"
ange nods at christys.
ange [to Bradley]: yes, i think you can
christys says, "Bradley, I dunno."
Bradley says, "like some folks use javascript to turn off right-clicking altogether"
ange [to Bradley]: those F-settings that tell it to open as a projector or to loop or to autostart or stop
christys says, "Text stays crisp but the image blurs."
Bradley says, "trying to prevent stuff being cribbed"
christys says, "Well you cant manipulate the flash without right clicking"
christys says, "Erica, do you want to dump Janes question in?"
epittman shows the slide "love" on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
christy,
duckpond paisana :-)
as i read, touch, peel, unfold my way through your work (and not for the
first spellbound time, i assure you), i am struck by the way in which
your web pages "read" like MOO rooms to me: there is the same need and
compulsion to feel my way through, across, into a multiplicity of
surfaces, and there is a similar sense that the way in which i do so
directly affects both the text and my own sensual experience of it. you
invite and encourage an exploratory and adventurous reading practice,
and i can't help relating it to what i know of MOO readership, which
also depends on a heightened libidinal relation between reader/player
and text.
this, then, is a speculative question for you: how do you (or do you)
see MOO as an avant garde literary genre? i'm familiar with some of the
trAce spaces in linguaMOO, where lovely experimental work is taking
place. my feeling is that MOO offers textual possibilities not
encompassed by hypertext but perhaps approachable via DHTML, java
applets, and flash, and yet MOO manifests a spatio-temporality of "pure"
textuality that invokes a virtuality, a virtuosity, that visuals can
only approximate. at the same time, i am, of course, enthralled by
webbed MOO interfaces that permit the integration, or at least the
miscegenation (e.g., the encore Xpress client), of deeply layered webbed
image/texts and sound with MOOtext.
perhaps the succinct version of my question is this: do you include MOO
(in any form) in your notion of web-specific writing? what obstacles do
you see to MOO being embraced, advanced, and accepted as a legitimate
literary genre?
best,
jane
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
christys says, "> heightened libidinal relation between reader/player"
ange . o O ( good or bad? )
christys says, ""
christys says, "That's fun. Oh, Moo, what to say. I think Cynthia and Jan have brought that Texas encore Xpress client quite far along. They seem committed to improving the interface and site. I like the way you can present work on the right hand side and can type in a key phrase and get something surprising, like "Christy hits Helen with a rolled up newspaper." I like the immediacy of chat but as a creative format, I haven't liked it too much. As it gets further away from ascii-type symbols and more into everything that html can do well, I like it better. I know people love it for its theatrical and architectural qualities and I've enjoyed being with those who go into another realm being there--Leoni Winston and Sue Thomas spring to mind. I would encourage you to keep working with it if it turns you on. "
christys says, "The only obstacle is freezing it into a text-only format and not allowing it to encompass the best that various languages (html, dhtml xml) can offer. As it increases in options and flexibility it should allow more and more experimentation. If you'd give me an example of the type of project you have in mind, I think I could address it more. Web-specific is pretty inclusive. If I didn't like it it wouldn't mean that it wasn't web-specific. By web-specific I meant naturally something that could only be done on the web. Something that makes use of the web's conventions or the things it does best. Almost always, I use web-specific art-writing. I come with certain prejudices, likes, just as everyone does. I was originally a visual artist, my parents were visual artists, it comes natural to me to work with both art and writing. The medium seems right for this hybrid. But I don't condemn those who want to work with only text. My plea is to let people travel in the direction they choose. "
christys says, "Wow, sorry it takes so long to dump."
[ 5:59 pm ]
ange says, "actually, i'm more and more interested in webbed moos and interfaces like the encore xpress client, so visuals, sound, QT, flash and the like are very much part of what i'm thinking of when i think of MOO"
glue say, "sounds like something ronan would say"
ange groans at glue.
glue glues
christys says, "For some reason I cant dump but part of this."
ange says, "well, the parts that made it are good, thanks"
christys says, "Certainly, Jane, looks like collaborations are a logical happening on Moo. Any collaboration can turn out as well as the ideas, text, etc. input of the participants. Most collaborations aren't real collaborations. It's great when you can se up a truly responsive environment. "
christys says, "You asked earlier about VRML and I would add Flash as areas to discuss. I like them both. Right now, I'm wondering why they seem tong-like or one step away from immediate. It's like you have to go through a door to enter them. Not the small Flash films I've been incorporating on a page but the all-Flash projects. They can be very beautiful with their exciting filmic qualities but somehow apart. With VRML, there is much user interaction but a tendency to seem gamelike. Again, I think, it's a matter of product improvement. The things that are irritable will become less so as newer versions appear. But will they ever seem integral?"
Bradley says, "Yeah, http doesn't allow for much response... that's one big advantage of using the MOO or Java, to get a connection with state"
christys sweats
christys says, "What will happen with the material from the colloquium? Do you think it will help?"
ange says, "integral? i'm not sure i understand. integral to the web?"
epittman says, "do you mean more seamlessly integrated?"
christys says, "To me, they dont seem immediate, thats all."
ange says, "hmmmm, moo seems very immediate to me. more so than html"
christys says, "Its like having to have a password."
christys says, "Yes, seamless."
christys says, "Yes, we are pretty immediate now."
jrice say, "moo, to me, is the textual gibson matrix - the (still) early stage of virtual reality"
christys says, "Say more about why you think that."
glue say, "ah, "matrix""
jrice say, "we venture out into this other world...."
jrice say, "still textual...."
Bradley [to christys]: It's interesting that you return to this idea of remoteness and integration so much both in the way you write, and in what you're writing *about* what you write.
jrice say, "but with new identities, bodies, places...."
ange says, "maybe this is a matter of individual predilection, but interactivity for its own sake doesn't always do anything for me. i'm more apt to fall for a conceptual slippage of some kind, an optical shift, if you will, and then get caught up in tracing out the rippling consequences."
epittman says, "i was wondering if seamlessness could be thought of as somehow _less_ immediate"
ange [to jrice]: i beg to differ. i think that moo textuality *is* a legit form of textuality, not just incipient VR.
jrice [to ange]: "what does "legit" mean here?
glue say, "or there is the interactivity of emulation: when I see Christy's site I want to do that myself"
christys says, "Seemless may not have been too good. How about on equal ground."
jrice say, "the matrix is emulation - in the sense - that's the world we want to live in!"
jrice say, "we create the place "
glue say, "I am thinking of matrix for now just in an architectural sense"
tharpold frowns slightly, wondering if "immediacy" is not a word we should be very cautious of -- it aims to hide structure, to efface production, too easily misleads us with a trope of transparency and uninterrupted agency.
ange [to jrice]: ad hoc usage: legit as in not necessarily relegated to the instrumental use of MOO as VR meeting place
epittman [to tharpold]: actually that was what i was trying to say...
jrice [to ange]: hmm. still not sure what it means. it implies a non-legit usage of VR...
christys says, "What would you replace immediacy with?"
glue say, "regarding Christy's remarks in the email about designing with dhtml"
ange nods at tharpold.
Bradley [to tharpold]: well, but there is a definite difference between the connections -- moo retains an open connection between server and client in a way that http doesn't
[ 6:10 pm ]
glue say, "regarding the browser space as 3-D figuratively, even without 3-D enabled sites"
ange [to jrice]: ummmm, only if you're assuming that moo is VR from the get-go, rather than a form of textuality that's been appropriated as VR
jrice [to Bradley]: we're not constantly waiting for contact with server
christys says, "Where do you think Lingua Moo at Dallas is headed?"
Bradley [to jrice]: Well, not even that -- we're not reconnecting to the server over and over and then disconnecting when done...
christys says, "Do you regard that one as the leader?"
glue's chad has come loose causing him to disconnect
Bradley [to christys]: Leader?
glue have disconnected.
christys says, "trying new things"
ange says, "jan and cynthia have developed amazing software, but they're focusing on educational applications for it rather than experimental uses."
tharpold [to christys]: I don't think that I would *replace* it with anything. This indicates an idiomatic theoretical concern, perhaps, but I would say only that it's very important to distinguish the performative gratifications of rapid online responsiveness from the cybercultural fetish for a perpetual now, a pure and seamless agency -- a fiction of the technologized self which poses huge problems, I believe, for careful criticism.
ange says, "i'd like to see interfaces designed for moo that integrate (that word again) the interactive text with the webbed graphical part, rather than separating them"
jrice [to ange]: ah..the matrix!
Bradley [to ange]: I think that's exactly right, both of your statements
jrice say, "at least the sci-fi version"
Bradley says, "we need a new moo client, not a hotwired browser"
christys says, "I d like that too, ange."
Bradley says, "at least IMO..."
epittman says, "hmmm this brings up a question i had about "
ange [to jrice]: well, it easily could be a sci-fi thing, but it doesn't have to be
epittman says, "whoops -- hang on"
jrice [to ange]: or what I meant was the film and novel version - gibson's vision
christys says, "How could there be a perpetual now?"
ange nods at Bradley.
christys says, "A continuous present but not a perpetual now"
ange [to jrice]: i like bill gibson as much as the next grrrrrl, but gees, there are other visions, you know!
tharpold [to christys]: The approach to aesthetic production which interests me most is one that emphasizes disconnection, stoppage, interruption, resistance -- in large part, because these are represented in the dominant popular discourse as temporary technical concerns -- to be eliminated in a future iteration of the software/hardware -- and not, as I see them, as irreducible traits of the real.
glue's friends arrive to cart us off to bed.
ange . o O ( VV's piece which is intentionally designed to crash one's computer . . . )
christys says, "Um, somethings are probably seamless and some things discontinuous, Terry. But it would be dull and unreal if all were seamless, I agree."
tharpold [to christys]: 'Perpetual now' may have been a bit quick on the draw, but I think I may stick by it for the moment -- what I was trying to capture there was the cybercultural elimination of historical consciousness.
tharpold [to ange]: What is this VV piece you mention?
Bradley [to tharpold]: Netscape 6
tharpold [to Bradley]: Microsoft Office
ange [to tharpold]: composing complicating processes... it contains many, many sound files that load and load and load and loop all over each other until your poor 'puter gives up the ghost.
[ 6:20 pm ]
tharpold [to ange]: Neat. It's called "composing complicating processes"?
jrice [to tharpold]: "elimination of historical consciousness" has been a general critique of media - like Jameson's
ange says, "yes. won one of the kairos webtext awards this past may."
tharpold [to ange]: Ah. Thanks.
christys says, "Yes, Terry, I can see the danger of eliminating historical consciousness. Id like to say it won't happen but it seems it often does."
christys says, "Mez says she found the moo but cant connect."
ange [to christys]: can she log on as a guest?
tharpold muses on another VV's programmed crashing of the computer, written about long ago. Other libidinal orders.
Bradley [to christys]: hrm, murdock is at the gate...
ange . o O ( does mez moo in mez? )
jrice say, "i'd like to see that..."
ange says, "me too"
christys says, "mezandwalt@wollongong.starway.net.au if anyone would like to help her get on"
christys says, "I didnt VV was so destructive :-)"
ange says, "think of it as expenditure"
Bradley sends a quick email.
ange says, "excess."
ange says, "rather than destruction"
christys says, "Erica, what was your political question. I voted for Gore."
Bradley laughs
christys says, "Last time Ralph."
epittman says, "well -- i was hoping you might speak to the situatedness of "web-specific" art on what is already a socio-political network..."
epittman says, "i had less a specific question than a general query"
tharpold [to christys]: The VV I was thinking of -- a form of expenditure and excess, indeed -- is the marvelous 1.0 version of Saenz's "Virtual Valerie," which included several intentional crashing-points, all oriented by the player's refusal to follow VV's lead. I published something on that years ago.
christys says, "How is the network socio-political? I can imagine what you mean, but I dont really know."
[ 6:30 pm ]
ange says, "how about an example---how is women's writing on the web politically engaged? would that be a way into what you're asking, erica?"
ange says, "women's art writing, i should specifiy"
epittman says, "hmmm -- that might be a better way to get at the question..."
christys says, "Oh, that I understand."
jpl has disconnected.
christys says, "I was thinking earlier about taboos and how once something becomes a taboo, when you break that it becomes a political act."
christys says, "When I wrote a love poem, which no one was doing, I felt that was a political act."
tharpold says, "Alas, another appointment calls. Thanks, Christy. Thanks, Erica. I look forward to catching up via the transcript."
ange says, "bye, terry"
christys says, "Just being an experimental writer is somewhat political."
christys waves to Terry
ange [to christys]: yes, i can see that, but is there some, ummmm, consciousness or awareness that makes these acts political rather simply, umm, unconventional?
tharpold disappears with a small noise, barely audible, but embarrassing to all.
tharpold has disconnected.
ange says, "or if not awareness, then a social context to realize the political nature of transgressive acts?"
christys says, "I feel related to Carolee Schnneemann, Montano, Acker, Daniell, a whole group of women that didnt give up their sexualtiy and senuality and continue (continued) to express it."
ange was thinking of awareness on the part of the writer, hence the correction...
christys says, "In what Carolee referred to as a sex-negative society."
christys says, "You run the risk of someone missing the formalism but, as I said in the email discussion, I dont think you can kill oppression, reach freedom without attending to the hot areas."
ange says, "is it transgressive in a similar way simply for women to be involved in digital technology?"
epittman says, "what do you mean by "missing the formalism"? is it the sensuousness of form to which you refer?"
christys says, "Sure"
jpl's friends arrive to cart em off to bed.
christys says, "Especially for a southern girl."
christys says, "But its better now."
ange heeheees.
Bradley smiles.
christys says, "I dont seem much sincerity of expression. That becomes forbidden and if forbidden enough, it becomes a political issue."
christys says, "If I cant say I love you and be taken seriously then eventually it will become political"
epittman says, "how "become political"?"
tharpold's friends arrive to cart em off to bed.
christys says, "Because it is fascistic to determine how people will express themselves."
ange says, "would you say that much, if not most, of the artwriting being done by women on the web is in some way informed by an ethos of resistance?"
ange says, "either implicitly or explicitly?"
christys says, "Resistance? Say more"
christys says, "by the way, I should have added mez to my list of sexy sisters."
ange says, "resistance in the sense that you're talking about here... deliberate transgression to politicize oppressions"
[ 6:41 pm ]
ange says, "you write sensuality as a form of resistance, i think ...?"
christys says, "Most of the women in the forefront on the web are feminists."
christys says, "Resistance sounds like someone on the defensive."
ange says, "oh, it doesn't carry that connotation for me"
christys says, "I think of the French resistance."
ange says, "i think resistance as active, sure, but also as in batik"
ange says, "or as in something being water-resistant... not defensively, it just is."
ange says, "like goretex."
ange says, "maybe."
Bradley says, "ah the politics of goretex!"
ange says, "goretextuality"
epittman says, "hmmm does anyone else have something to ask/add to the discussion before we call it a night?"
christys says, "Slightly different direction for Erica. I think there is a great of support and networking that passes through the email systems"
jrice say, "it was a great discussion!"
christys says, "great deal"
christys says, "Thanks, Jeff."
epittman [to christys]: support for? i've lost the thread...
ange says, "yes, this was fun. gee, why don't we do this more often? :-)"
christys says, "Support for work and for telling each other about opportunities."
Bradley's fingers want him to type less. Spirit willing, flesh weak...
christys says, "Night, Bradley"
Bradley [to christys]: Thanks for a great discussion, both here and on email. I'll post the log later tonight.
jrice say, "Thanks Christy for coming out tonight. It's been a great week and great session"