Computers and Writing Working Group
Fall 2000 Virtual Colloquium Series
Session log
Michael Spooner
Utah State University Press
and
Kathleen Blake Yancey
Professor of English
Clemson University
[log started Tue Nov 7 17:03:21 2000 EST]
Participants: jrice, Bradley, egarcia, MichaelS, dave, ange, MrFurious, ronan, the guest, sullivan, the corporate guest, and Murdock
jrice say, "We'll go ahead and get started..."
The guest says, "this is soo weird. It always makes me laugh."
jrice say, "people might make their way in here and there"
ronan says, "now, that's more like home"
MichaelS says, "what is this about MOOs? "
jrice [to ronan]: quit shoving
ange [to MichaelS]: which this?
Bradley [to MichaelS]: Especially this one.
Bradley says, "this this"
The guest says, "some of you seem sort of rolly polly"
ange [to the guest]: that would be ronan
ange smiles at ronan.
ronan [to MichaelS]: 'Juxtaposition without predication challenges expectations
jrice say, "Ok...I'm going to start the slide show"
The guest says, "oh he's serious, that ronan"
ronan smiles at ange
jrice shows the slide "intro" on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Welcome to the second session of the CWWG colloquium
Today's guests are Kathleen Blake Yancey and Michael Spooner (Myka Vielstimmig)
The reference URL for today's session is http://web.english.ufl.edu/cwwg/colloquium/myka.html. You may want to keep two browsers open for the session.
NOTE: To review this or any other slide at any time, type <peek 1 on sp>, <peek 2 on sp>, etc.
Also, This session is being logged. The log will be posted on the CWWG colloquium web site for reference during the email discussion to follow.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
ronan stands up from the rug.
ronan says, "-guest I refuse that appelation, always already"
ronan sits quietly, without emitting any smells, on the rug.
Bradley claps!
MrFurious has connected.
The guest says, "do I go get coffee *now*?"
jrice say, "We have five prepared questions for today, and we'll try to get to all of them"
Bradley [to the guest]: We'll have some Guinness later
The guest says, "ok, I'll wait"
jrice say, "There is a beer machine around here somewhere, I believe"
The guest says, "a beer machine???"
Bradley says, "Thanks to both Michael and Kathleen for being here."
MichaelS says, "Welcome."
ange says, "leaning against the wall..."
ronan says, "I can bring my keg in"
jrice say, "Yes, thank you"
The guest says, "nice to be here"
ronan says, "thanks for coming"
jrice say, "First question...."
The guest says, "oh structure"
jrice shows the slide "love" on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Kathleen, Michael--
I'm intrigued by your use of Modernist art and literature in thinking about and experimenting with new forms of academic writing. If I understand correctly, you're suggesting a self-conscious break with the traditions of scholarly writing, a break that could be seen as parallel with the Modernists' self-conscious breaks with artistic and literary traditions.
You also say (contra the popular 'label') that electronic media do not dictate or 'prefer' a certain style or performance, locating the crucial tension insteadin the visual/verbal difference, rather than the electronic/print difference. Nothing forces us to read or write a certain way in any medium, or, as you write: 'surely there is no escape from choosing.'Cubist paintings are dramatic visualizations--celebrations!--of this, umm, 'predicament,' and I love your translation of it into academic writing as 'Cubist textuality.'
People have had to be educated to 'see' Cubist paintings, and to see, hear, and read Modernist art, music, and literature, which at times seem paradoxically to reduce the choices available to the reader/viewer in the name of the idea of choice (a paradox noted in relation to hypertext by Steve Krause in the email clip you quote). My own experiment with a Flash-based academic essay suggests that 'Cubist textuality' (my version of it, at least) can be quite enigmatic to viewers/readers, and I am left wondering what it is that I was asking my readers to do, to *learn,* when I created this piece , and how I imagine they are to learn this, and what sort of relationship this tutelage comprises between them and me. So I am wondering: When one self-consciously undertakes to fashion a new contingency of reading and writing where previously there has been none (and in contrast to elaborating a new *necessity* as dictated by technology), how does one negotiate the Modernist situation this seems to create? Do you see 'Cubist textuality' as a recuperation of Modernism, a revaluation, or a reappropriation (or none of the above, or all)? - Jane Love
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The guest says, "um, do you know where you'd like us to start with this?"
The guest says, "or I could?"
The guest says, "I'm parsing"
ronan recoups
MichaelS says, "Um.. could you repeat the question?"
The guest says, "we are advocating a break? yes."
[ 5:13 pm ]
Bradley reads. "Cubist textuality."
Bradley [to MichaelS]: You can 'peek 2 on projector' to see it again.
MichaelS says, "Just kidding, heh. "
Bradley smiles.
ange says, "actually y'all sort of started talking about this in email in response to victor's question"
The guest says, "we are, yes."
ange says, "i think VV was asking something very close to what i was trying to ask in this question... if that helps."
Bradley [to the guest]: So, is this break a revaluation of modernism?
The guest says, "we are advocating a break, yes."
The guest says, "aren't we Michael?"
MichaelS says, "... in a similar way that the cubists were."
The guest says, "and the modernists are a parallel in some ways?"
ronan ponders
MichaelS says, "well, but what's a modernist? a creation of the postmodernists? i mean, do we mean modernism in the pejorative sense that pomo boys and grrls mean it? I'm not content with that sort of dissing."
The guest says, "so break, yes; cubism as model/method/influence"
Bradley nods to Michael.
The guest says, "actually, the modernists are in the process of being rehabilitated, all across the board--art, architecture"
jrice say, "it seems to me the break is never a "break;" Picasso's collage or even Flash's borrowings from animation"
ronan nods at pomo/mo as a formulation of cohesion/coherence/dis/re/integration
The guest says, "but the point isn't so much, as Michael says, to get into the pomo-modernists fray"
dave nods at jrice
jrice say, "I find Flash highly reconizable as simple cartoons"
MichaelS says, "I like cubism in it's model both visually and ... what... intergenerationally?"
ronan agress with rice too, re: scale versus break
The guest says, "I'm too young for intergenerationally. Can you explain? ;)"
MichaelS says, "I like their self-consciousness about form."
ange [to MichaelS]: right, i have trouble w/ modernism=bad formulations too
Bradley nods to Ange.
Bradley says, "That's like _Wired_ postmodernism."
The guest says, "I like their movement across form"
MichaelS says, "yes."
ronan rehabiltates some modernists at night, in secret, in his spare room
The guest says, "we knew ye, Ronan"
Bradley [to ronan]: That's what all those lights are for!
MichaelS says, "and the moaning..."
ronan [to Bradley]: Dos Passos is now officiallly rehabiltated for his crimes against form
Bradley says, "but what about a break with the modern instituion of The Academy"
Bradley says, "or rather, the academy in it's modern form"
Bradley learns to type
The guest says, "well, that's a difficult break if this is where you earn your living. "
MichaelS says, "Sure, we're tyring to break with that. Yes, I think so. "
The guest says, "but not impossible. I'd rather change its form, and I'm more likely to do that."
jrice [to the guest]: that seems the direction of the Cubists - to change form over breaking. Breaking gives you rubble
The guest says, "I mean, if Michael disappeared, and if I did, you all might miss us, but Harvard would continue to be Harvard"
MichaelS says, "Right. Break as in modify, not as in end/beginagain"
ange says, "i guess what i'm wondering about is how this kind of experimental work positions in relation to audiences. i'm not disposed to writing up explanations of what i'm doing, but w/out them, folks are mystified. how to bridge these breaks? what sort of responsibility comes w/ this kind of work, if any?"
The guest says, "a key question, Jane"
The guest says, "and folks want us to explain"
dave says, "the advantage of Picasso is he's already Picasso--people say, hey we better pay attention"
ronan thinks Harvard will never be the same without you two
ange nodsnods.
The guest says, "and sometimes, as in the Kairos piece, we do--but mostly so we can talk about what it is that we discuss"
Bradley nods to Ange.
[ 5:23 pm ]
MichaelS says, "What kind of responsibility.. Well, I'll agree that there's some responsibility to the audience, but I don' think we ignore that."
The guest says, "and use that as a way of educating people. But then I think well, why not help people really learn to read?"
The guest says, "in other words, perhaps people should learn to read fully rather than to read so literally?"
MichaelS says, "There's a form to every bit of writing, and the reader always has to engage it."
ange says, "i recently showed my students a snippet of a flash essay of mine, and i was fascinated to see that several of them were much more adept at reading it than the academics who've seen it..."
The guest says, "so perhaps the question is who's the reader?"
ange [to the guest]: yes, exactly!
MichaelS says, "and what's their responsibility."
Bradley says, "that's cool unless the reader is like the dean"
ange [to MichaelS]: what's their response-ability. my students are better able to respond than my colleagues
The guest says, "and this is always true. It's worth noting that Picasso is so well known and understood because he spent a great deal of time explaining what he was trying to do"
ronan [to the guest]: that situtaedness seems to be at the heart of what you call 'mutula migrartion' or am I reading wrong?
jrice [to ange]: so why do you think that's so?
The guest says, "ronan, tell us more about the situatedness?"
ange [to jrice]: i'm not sure, but i think they're more willing, or able, to relinquish control, and the stuff i'm fooling with requires that
The guest says, "academics are quite conservative folk"
ronan [to the guest]: I was responding to your theorizing of it in Dropping Bread Crumbs
jrice [to the guest]: right. we (academics or wanna bes) read experimental wrok (Derrida/Barths) but don't do much of it ourselves
MichaelS says, "Dropping Bread Crumbs was George and Shoos."
ronan says, "and it seemed like a form of reader-response that depends on (un)familiarity with any text at/in hand"
The guest says, "Dropping Bread Crumbs? Huh?"
MichaelS says, "George and Shoos."
ronan apologizes, he meant the Chapter5 version of Petals
MichaelS says, "Okay."
ronan has it in front of him, and was struck by the slope sitautedness slides down
The guest says, "yea, there's a lot of cool stuff that *talks about* performative writing in the most linear academic prose"
The guest says, "it's a study in irony and juxtaposition"
ronan . o O ( sitaution as genre inventio )
Bradley nods to the guest.
MichaelS says, "somewhere else we muse that we could do this all in a linear, monologic essay."
ronan [to MichaelS]: of course, I am a notoriously bad reader, so I must have gotten it wrong
The guest says, "actually we have written one of those"
MichaelS says, "Not I."
ronan laughs at k's joke
The guest says, "actually that's about right. I think I did write most of it ;) I mean if we were counting words or somethin'"
ange wonders if the academy doesn't secretly think that performance is just a bit . . . juvenile, a bit embarrassing when one of us actually does it . . . .
The guest says, "yes it does"
The guest says, "since you asked"
jrice say, "The second question we have here (from an absent member) connects to Jane's question. But it requires us to go to the Web to see it. It involves the Cubism and performance issue."
MichaelS says, "It does, because, performance is play."
dave says, "how does one judge performance? what's a good performance over a bad one?"
ange says, "fine to theorize it, but must one actually DO it?"
MichaelS says, "a good one is one I like."
The guest says, "that's an interesting question: how to judge performance"
ronan gets his Kant off the shelf and judges judgement
ronan says, "guilty"
jrice shows the slide "thomas" on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Harun Thomas asks his question form the Web: http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~hthomas/mykaviel.html in a format we can't reproduce here in the MOO
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
dave says, "Bradley are the WOO connections working?"
ange neatly cuts off ronan's kant, rendering it pointless and therefore ineffably beautiful.
Bradley [to dave]: I think that's one of the reasons that peformance is set aside -- we don't have nifty criterion for it like we do for the essay
The guest says, "if it's performance writing, according to this article I just read, it has to be nervous, evocative, metynomic, subjective, citational, and consequential"
dave nods to Bradley
[ 5:33 pm ]
Bradley [to dave]: I dunno. You may have to pop open a browser by hand. We're always changing stuff around here...
jrice likes citational
ronan nods at the nonfunctiuonal functionality of harun's citation of Derrida
The guest says, "yes, it makes it very self-conscious and purposeful and aware and that makes for smart"
ange [to the guest]: consequential?
jrice wishes Harun was here to explain Ice Cubism
ronan wishes harun was here to explain what self-portraits are
MichaelS says, "I don't know... Why would multivocality be more solipsistic than monovocality? Why would we expect it to be less? "
ronan says, "though, when he posits _i'll have you observe that reading proceeds in no other way . . ._ I see that in contradiction to what myka is conceptualizing"
The guest says, "it is consequential, meaning rhetorical, interested in alternative normality"
ange [to the guest]: ahh, yes, thanks.
Bradley says, "I bet that the objection to moving toward a more performative standard for first-year comp would come from a functional level."
ange [to MichaelS]: perhaps harun means that it's solipsistic in terms of how we conceive of multivocality... that it's not necessarily as multiplicitous as we might think it is . . . ?
jrice say, "one thing that strikes me about his question is how returns the citation..."
Bradley sorta turns harun's question sideways.
sullivan arrives.
Bradley apologizes to im through the moolog.
ange waves to sullivan.
ange says, "hey laura"
dave says, "http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~hthomas/mykaviel.html is where we are sullivan"
jrice say, "now myka is being cited, but not academically ("Petals" 98)"
dave says, "how are sexism & racism being juxtaposed in this question?"
egarcia says, "harun's questions lead (for me) to: a. when multivocality taught, when students are learned to read (and write) it, how is it still multivocal in any (radical) way? how is it not appropriated into monovocality (esp the Academy has a way with these things-- see Cubism)"
ange nods at egarcia
dave says, "good reading Emily"
Bradley nods at egarcia.
sullivan [to egarcia]: "also, there is nothing inherently radical about multivocality itself. e.g., liberal pluralism
ange says, "and yet within the context of academic writing, multivocality IS radical"
jrice nods to ange
MichaelS says, "If he means that when a vocality ceases to inscrutable (unhearable?), then it is already co-opted, then I don't buy it. What makes Myka not solipsistic is the dialogue, i.e., with the audience. The Bakhtin perspective. Is that naive? "
jrice say, "this is the question of voice"
MichaelS says, "to *be* inscrutable, that is (heh. oops)"
sullivan says, "it seems to me what is crucial in the classroom is (a) to expose students to ways of thinking they might not know about (b) to present politically radical alternatives in the choices for different voices students can work with and (c) to teach them about the appropriation that occurs (esp in capitalism, by the media)"
ronan [to ange]: yes, but is it a drawing of the blind by the blind? it seesm derrida's appropriation in this question works against the point harum seesm to be making
[ 5:44 pm ]
MichaelS says, "I agree that there's nothing inherently radical about multivocality, as sullivan says."
ange [to ronan]: ? sorry, can you explain?
ronan [to MichaelS]: I don't buy it either, in terms of unhearable, since the cacophony is what is heard, and the coherence of the cacophonous is what is at stake, ?
jrice say, "but isn't academic writing one of a few discourses that asks multivocality to put every separate voice in quotation marks - otherwise plagiarism "
MichaelS says, "Noise and silence."
egarcia says, " and b. why is multivocality often opposed to functionality (ease of reading);what then are the implicaations of such an opposition when more 'fundamentally political' work, such as that of ethnic studies, seeks to function in a way that isn't 'accessible,' particularly, some might argue, to those who still to learn to read in a more 'basic' way (AIM, for example)"
ange wonders if solipsism isn't a charge that could be applied to most any position, at some point or in some context. . .
The guest says, "can we define multi-vocality?"
ronan [to ange]: quoting D_first hypothesis: the drawing is blind . . . as such, and in the moment proper to it, the operation of drawing would have something to do with blindness. VERSUS his ? _Of course, the writing is fragmentary. But, can I not tell you who you are?
sullivan says, "i find im's adrienne rich example interesting, my personal way out of the which is primary--gender or race--issue is to have a systemic analysis (i.e. class)"
The guest says, "a play is multi-vocal and everyone loves it, so it's *not* multi-vocality per se"
ronan [to sullivan]: in what way is class, as a concept, systematic ?
sullivan says, "however, the issue itself raising some interesting questions--why, for example, are we so encouraged to always *rank* oppressions?"
ange [to the guest]: yes, it's contextual
Bradley [to sullivan]: Cause we have too many
The guest says, "it is true that multi-vocality assumes multiple perspectives"
ronan [to ange]: did that explain my concerns?
Bradley goes back to egarcia's point
ange [to ronan]: i think might have later on . . .
The guest says, "but plenty of texts are seemingly multi-vocal and really quite univocal in approach, value, etc"
ange [to ronan]: thanks
sullivan [to ronan]: "class isn't always systemic, i just meant to distinguish my class analysis -- considering the relationship to conditions of production --to class as an *identity*
ronan nods at kathleen
The guest says, "what's interesting here in part is the mix between vocal and visual"
MichaelS says, "Right. I was going to ask Why does it assume multiple perspectives?"
ronan nods at sullivan's sitauting the systematicity of class, as she practices it
Bradley [to the guest]: Why is that interesting?
ange [to the guest]: at some level of discernment, all texts are univocal simply for employing a single language, or existing as texts, or conforming to standards of intelligibility.
The guest says, "because in comp studies we tend to do either voice or eye; we rarely do both"
ronan [to the guest]: a poetics and a rhetorics, the net essay as art rather than exposition ?
The guest says, "ah ronan reads well. Yes."
ronan smiles and waits for his gold star
The guest says, "art--and rhetoric."
MichaelS says, "Well, not "rather than" but as well as.."
ange says, "good ronan, good boy."
ronan nods at the visual and and and
Bradley says, "OK. But there's a lot we rarely do in comp studies."
The guest says, "and he speaks ;)"
sullivan says, "regarding multiple perspectives, i wanted to bring up something from the petals on the bough chapter, where you at times use the idea of setting up multiple voices in conversation with one another, i was always framing the multivocality in my hypertexts this way, too, until i came across sergei eisenstein, who talks about setting up the different elements in his filmic montages in *collision* (vs. linkage)"
jrice [to the guest]: then art and rhetoric changes certain comp demands - instead of where's your topic sentence, it's where's that collage?
ronan sits and begs for scraps from ange
The guest says, "I know there's a lot. But that gives us lots of room to play"
MichaelS says, "Good point, Jeff."
ange has used up all her scraps. sorry.
ronan . o O ( play as performativity, play as (in)determinacy )
MichaelS says, "Exposition as form, as perform."
jrice say, "Seems to me that comp's biggest problem is escaping from some of these paradigms like the topic sentence"
The guest says, "Jeff, I'm *all* for abandoning the topic sentence altogether."
ronan [to the guest]: is play alwaqys associative, you think?
sullivan says, "all of these ideas are related to juxtaposition, and lately i'm trying to think through different ways of theorizing juxtaposition in hypertext"
dave says, "but when you don't know how to write a topic sentence, you don't have a place to move from (juxtaposition, collage)--or am I getting this wrong?"
ronan [to sullivan]: juxtaposition isTHE problematic for comics scholarship, so I feel your pain
jrice [to sullivan]: for Eisenstein juxtapositon was pedagogical; i don't see why we can't think in those terms as well (Burroughs, too, saw this)
The guest says, "play *is* associative, and that's where solopsism could raise its ugly head. Hence, multi-vocality"
ange [to ronan]: or dissociative?
sullivan [to jrice]: "exactly
Bradley [to jrice]: I guess part of the question is harun's point -- do we agree that escape from topic sentence to collage isn't necessarily an escape -- just a shift in arbitrary criterion?
MichaelS says, "no, play isn't *always* associative."
ronan nods at ange and the dissociative possibilities in his students works
ange [to ronan]: about the play there between diss/association?
Bradley [to jrice]: Or, do we believe something in collage makes it an escape no matter what?
jrice [to Bradley]: is it?
The guest says, "to michael s play for *you* isn't always associative. It is for moi ;)"
dave says, "is it not an escape, but only perceived as one w/o criteria?"
[ 5:54 pm ]
MichaelS says, "It's dissociative for you, don't deny it... "
ronan agrees with bradley, but think the frame of harun's question mixes the possibilities of _the point_ as point, ie how does the blind hand drawing always produce a self-portrait
sullivan says, "what i'm trying to do in my hypertext work, as creator and in my the way i teach my students hypertext, is to have them *use* the associative dimension of hypertext (dreamlogic, unconscious material, etc) --goes into the text and is set up beside/against social critique and deconstruction of media messages"
The guest says, "could collage become as sterile as topic sentence? Is that the question? yes"
The guest says, "is not, is not"
jrice say, "yes anything could become/ and will become sterile"
MichaelS says, "Isn't Harun saying *any* hand drawing is drawing a self-portrait? "
sullivan says, "in relation to the pedagogical dimension, i try to set up hypertext projects that product what greg ulmer calls the eureka effect, both on a personal level and also in terms of how the social is viewed, and hopefully these illuminations occur for both hypertext creators and reader-viewers"
Bradley [to the guest]: Well, but some folks act as if hypertext, association, etc can't ever be sterile, overdetermined, whatever...
The guest says, "sullivan, what would happen if your students made a conventional page and then re-did it, sort of like Picasso creating realism and then abstracting?"
ronan [to MichaelS]: harun might be saying that, but I don't know if that wha the 2 quotes from Derrida are saying
jrice [to MichaelS]: I wonder, though, if he isn't speaking also about the questions of self-portrait/identity (who's speaking here) in your pieces
Bradley thinks of _Wired_ style starry-eyedness again.
jrice say, "Ok let's hear Dave's question"
jrice shows the slide "johnson" on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I see an avant-garde impulse in much of the work of our guests in the colloquiumthus far. (The avant-garde impulse always runs counter to dominant forms and seeks to break from established traditions.) Thus far in our Colloquium, our discussions have centered around approaches like the one discussed in Myka's Petals piece--fragmented, associative--the 'new essay'of Bishop's writing. Alternative practices. The avant-garde of rhet-comp, in a way.
So in seeking alternative practices, an avant-garde approach, we adopt fragmentary, associative ways of working. I'm very interested in these ways of working, but I'm worried that we might not be committing a major error the likes of whichBrecht warns about--that no one method is itself going to reveal the masks of the dominant practice (for him, bourgeois oppressors) but that, because the 'masks' change, the methods must as well. In other words, we may be adopting fragmentary/associative methods of working without determining the degree to which those methods work in our specific context.
Have we been too quick to assume a fragmentary, associative practice for an electrate environment? In other words, have we come to associate fragmentary, what I would call Modernist formal methods, with ANY avant-garde practice--without interrogating the specific context of the practice (the masks we seek to reveal)? Finally, since we do seem to encounter a great deal of 'fragmentation' on the web (and I may be off-base on this last one), shouldn't we be seeking alternatives to that--alternatives to fragmentary ways of working--if that's how everyone else is doing it anyway? - Dave Johnson
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
ronan nods at that
The guest says, "jeff, yes, self portrait=identity=voice"
ange wonders what sort of utopian dream underlies our pervasive concern w/ whether play, performance, collage, etc. are "really" different, "really" an escape or a break or mulitvocal, or . . . ? when clearly they are all modalities available for co-optation?
sullivan [to the guest]: "i kind of set it up that way, but instead my students product a standard research paper, written in formal academic style, then they take that same topic and rework it in hypertext form, what i call activist autobiographical hypertexts
Bradley [to dave]: You're gonna help us if we get stuck, right?
Bradley grins, and reads
The guest says, "suppose, sullivan, that you then did a what if--what if x were changed? then y? in other words, get them there socially and get them there slowly? "
dave says, "sorry folks I get carried away"
sullivan [to the guest]: "can you elaborate on what you mean, i think it sounds interesting...
The guest says, "well, let's not ignore Dave's question: can we come back to it?"
The guest says, "where would you like us to start, Dave?"
MichaelS says, "I think the answer is Yes."
dave says, "how about with alternatives to fragmentation"
ronan says, "In other words, we may be adopting fragmentary/associative methods of working without determining the degree to which those methods work in our specific context.....dave, what is our specific context? the academy ?"
sullivan [to ange]: "utopian, yes, and can we still reclaim that concept somehow, can we re-activate is in a way that avoids the pomo advertising celebration of fluidity, fragmentation of identity, etc?
Bradley grins at MichaelS.
dave says, "well, two contexts--academy and the web itself"
jrice likes fragmentation
MrFurious waves goodbye. "Thanks for the great discussion!"
Bradley [to dave]: Well, do we need them?
MrFurious steps quietly out into the hallway. Aquifer. (Whatever!)
sullivan says, "i also took context to mean historical, social"
dave [to sullivan]: yes
ronan to all "no"
sullivan [to dave]: "it seems to me that your question(s) recommend that we not buy into the frequent habit of just celebrating all deviant formal experiments
The guest says, "well, there's an assumption here that electric stuff tends to the associative, the fragmentary. Is that so?"
dave says, "that's the assumption I'm asking about"
ronan says, "I disagree with that, on the face of it"
MichaelS says, "It's the myth of electracy."
ronan [to the guest]: not too much associative with NY Times Online, nor with slashdot, to give but 2 quick examples
The guest says, "I don't know about you all, but when I last checked Clemson's webpage, it was pretty linear"
ange [to sullivan]: yes, i think so, but it means relocating the site of the uptopian. i'm not sure that any *thing,* whether that's a thing or a practice (textual or otherwise) or whatever, can effectively ground a utopia, bcs it's always going to be open to reappropriation.
ronan [to MichaelS]: not all of us here buy into that particular myth
The guest says, "though I do think there is hype, what Michael is calling mythology: Wired eg"
Bradley says, "well, but it's a myth that does shape our classrooms"
sullivan [to the guest]: "what is cool about the electronic is that the associative way we think can be spatially represented (and to my mind there are radical implications of this capacity), as you point out in your writing, most folks put up linear, traditional stuff online
jrice say, "but the Web functions at the level of fragmentation....."
ronan [to jrice]: how, exactly, does the web do that?
MichaelS says, "So does a phonebook."
sullivan [to ange]: "i agree, and to my mind what we need to ground our utopias are material efforts to work for structural change at the same time
jrice [to ronan]: at the most basic level the fragmented web page...read 2000 words on a screen. It's uncomfortable
[ 6:04 pm ]
The guest says, "yes, well, that's the fun part of the medium; that's it permits pretty much what we want to do with it. The question is, what *do* we want to do with it, and why?"
ronan [to jrice]: is TCP/IP fragmentary? do email packets remain fragmented when opened on a users screen ?
jrice [to ronan]: e-mail is often fragmented
ronan [to jrice]: fragmentation is constructed, not a priori
MichaelS says, "If the myth of association were true, then I'd agree totally with Dave. We can't let it go to the point where we automatically ask of a text "where's the collage", as jrice was saying (way) above."
sullivan [to ange]: "it seems to me that we have to move beyond the realm of signification / aesthetics to effect change, though these efforts will be central to social change i think
The guest says, "return to the idea of identity? What role does fragmentation play in identity? Association?"
MichaelS says, "Extension."
jrice say, "identity and fragmentation is Barthes' Roland Barthes"
dave [to MichaelS]: I'm not saying I agree with the myth of association, but I guess I read that in your work
ronan [to sullivan]: why go beyond aesthetics/signification when we are just getting here? I don't mean to be snide, but can we talk about Spooner/Yance3y's work tonight?
MichaelS [to dave]: I know. You're questioning it. I think you're right to do that.
sullivan [to the guest]: "i think in part the medium facilitates an uncovering of the political unconscious (to use jameson's term), or what benjamin and breton call the material unconscious, the ways that social dynamics are internalized by subjects and then influence how we think, feel, behave, view ourselves, etc.
jrice say, "I'm also not so sure writing with fragments is only the result of electronic culture..or how we're considering the electronic here"
The guest says, "suppose we come at this another way, but one that might could tie up some threads here."
dave says, "sounds good"
The guest says, "suppose we thought of space and place."
sullivan [to ronan]: "actually i wasn't at all implying that these folks' work is irrelevant, on the contrary i think it helps support my point, much of what they say is about not staying myopically focused on the text
ronan [to dave]: your point about Brecht seesm relevant, ie a moving set of strategies, and I seem to see that in the petals essay, a pattern rather than a program
Bradley [to the guest]: Collect some fragments, as it were.
The guest says, "not what I read is that place is space made associatively, connected to, located in, and expressive of identity"
ronan takes off his short-sighted glasses and look around
MichaelS says, "a place in space"
dave [to ronan]: yes, I agree, but at times I was reading (perhaps misreading?) the pattern as program
Bradley thinks of space and place.
The guest says, "no, not a place in space, thanks so much (not)"
MichaelS says, "sorry. the gary snyder coming out in me..."
sullivan [to dave]: "it does seem to me that your caution is warranted. the question now might be, what to learn from this caution? how will we approach these types of texts now?
jrice thinks sun ra, the space is the place
The guest says, "the idea is that we all live in a space of some kind (for some, it's outer, I see ;)"
dave loves gary snyder
The guest says, "never mind"
The guest laughs
The guest says, "it was a good idea, too"
MichaelS says, "tell it. "
The guest says, "no"
ange says, "oh, c'mon"
The guest says, "another time, truly. It will take too long. Just that it has potential, especially for the electronic"
Bradley [to the guest]: Awright, then, another slide?
sullivan [to the guest]: "how 'bout on the email list later this week, then?
ronan [to the guest]: online sensibility: you posit ulmer/batson/the screen as 3 ways of thinking about new online forms? is processing (a la Negroponte and Lanham) a juxta[position to the first 3 ?
The guest says, "yes, I can do that. Outline it. "
The guest says, "I wondered earlier why no one had mentioned Lanham. Is there a reason for that (omission)?"
ronan [to the guest]: and is this an awareness in R/C of what you say folks like Shandy have been doing for centuries, ie constructing hypertexts
ronan [to the guest]: we don't like L, we like N, and S and Y
The guest says, "yea, well, hypertext isn't all that hyper, is it?"
Bradley laughs.
ronan takes ritalin before every web session
ronan says, "and it helps"
jrice say, "we know"
The guest says, "it's got potential to hyper"
The guest says, "ronan, it helps? Surely, you're jesting"
The guest grin
ronan is jesting
ronan says, "always"
jrice say, "ok we'll move on to next slide then"
ronan says, "no wait"
The guest says, "no I meant about its helping, she laughs"
ronan says, "the part of Petals that deals with the new essay seems relevant to Dave's ?"
[ 6:14 pm ]
ronan . o O ( the film is running but this ain't no movie )
sullivan says, "can i bring up another issue, seems related--the issue of multilinearity / linearity. i used to make all hypertexts multilinear, and taught my students that way, too, last year i decided i couldn't figure out what was so radical about that, the reader choosing the order in these cases didn't seem very profound, so now i'm making some linear texts that seem pretty powerful in a different way"
sullivan says, "any thoughts about the differences between linearity and multilinearity (branching) in hypertext?"
ronan says, "what is the proper # of conventions to deploy?"
ronan asks metaphorically
MichaelS says, "I don't wnat Dave to think that we advocate *only* new essay. "
dave [to MichaelS]: I don't think that--just wanted to question it some
The guest says, "Negroponte throws out interesting tidbits that don't seem to connect or illustrate; they promise a future rather than documenting or elucidaitng it. Lanham is interesting, but a bit of a throwback with electonic as ala mode. The others are more interested in re-cconcieveing what we do, which requires a language, a text, reflection."
ronan [to MichaelS]: that was why I enjoyed the historicizing tendency of that section
MichaelS [to ronan]: Ah, I get it.
jrice say, "Lanham did his work before the Web really took off....a lot of those often cited in this field (Landow etc) were writing from a different base"
ronan [to MichaelS]: Tristam Shandy was the first hypertext I ever read
MichaelS [to ronan]: And she wouldn't even let me *start* on Appolinaire...
The guest says, "yes, that's so. But the illustrated manuscript is only one genre, and not necessarily a perferred one."
ronan laughs
The guest says, "what she? ;)"
jrice say, "ok we've got two more questions to get through, so I'm going to move this along"
jrice shows the slide "rice" on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In two of your essays, 'Petals on a Wet Black Bough' and 'Not a Cosmic Convergence: Rhetorics, Poetics, Performance, and the Web' (in Kairos), you mention collage as a model for academic writing. In the Kairos piece, you write that 'current experiments in academic writing' utilize collage-like efforts to provide an aesthetic experience. In 'Petals' such an aesthetic experience seems to be captured in 'the new essay' you call for. Can you elaborate on what composition might learn from collage, how you use collage in your own pedagogy, and what other elements of web writing (other than hyperlinks) might allow writers of 'the new essay' to create academic collages? ------ Jeff Rice
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
ronan [to MichaelS]: the illustarted broadsheet, on the other hand, may have iimportant things to tell us, re: juxtaposition and multi-vocality
The guest says, ""get through?" sounds like work to me"
jrice [to the guest]: no, no not work...just get them in on time
Bradley [to the guest]: s/get through/play with/
sullivan says, "one way i bring collage into my student hypertexts is to use texts like _aids demographics_, which features the graphics of act up new york, as models"
The guest says, "play with. yup. like it."
sullivan says, "we look at their signs, the way they put together text and image to produce shock, while at the same time informing"
MichaelS thinks these questions are soooo long.
ronan agrees
The guest says, "well, let's think about what we're doing now. What will happen to this transcript?"
ronan [to jrice]: could you talk about some of your collage techniques, since they seem close to what S/Y are arguing for
jrice [to the guest]: you mean it's posting on the Web?
The guest says, "what would happen if someone/s were asked to write it up as report? or first, as collage? wouldn't that be fun? think about what you'd have to think about?"
jrice [to the guest]: correct. I think of this strategy as Burroughs' cut up.
Bradley can't think of collage without thinking of the visual
The guest says, "yes, Burroughs. And remember palimpsest?"
jrice [to ronan]: we do a lot of collage in my classes....
The guest says, "there is a difference between the two, I think, so different things to learn from/with them."
MichaelS says, "I think (I think) that Myka isn't so much into the aesthetics of collage, as trying to point to the form of (all) compositions."
jrice [to the guest]: the Medieval handbooks were collages of sorts...
sullivan says, "this log is going to seem different than most other moo logs i've seen, actually this conversation is seeming fairly one-topic-at-a-time, and most moo sessions i've been involved with have multiple conversations happening at once, usually very rapidly"
jrice say, "I was thinking of Laura's point. The MOO session seems to be the opposite of even Myka's essays "
The guest says, "there is some of that, but not as much as some I've been one. B/c there are two speakers? Fewer overall?"
Bradley [to MichaelS]: So, perhaps broadening the question would be better?
jrice say, "Since the essays mention collage as part of what you're doing, my question is really how do we bring that into the academic situtation, the comp classroom, etc"
ronan [to Bradley]: could we broaden it to make collage and collaboration the staryting point ?
MichaelS says, "collage is the way that we've chosen to represent the dialogue that we have in composing. we use it to expose the gears and pulleys of our process, and well, because it's fun. But another approach to the form question would be fine with Myka. We're just messing about with form."
jrice [to MichaelS]: do you see the form changing...
Bradley says, "Well, I was thinking that collage is just... yeah, what MichaelS just said."
The guest says, "collaboration is always about collage: we just make that explicit"
Bradley [to ronan]: You know we haven't taked much about collaboration all night. Weird for you and me
The guest says, "and palimpsest"
MichaelS [to the guest]: So you agree with me on this?
ronan nods at dilger
A corporate guest arrives.
The guest says, "agree on the messing about with form?"
[ 6:24 pm ]
jrice say, "and often the critque of collage is: that's just pictures put together (or text), but so what? What does that do for critical writing?"
MichaelS [to jrice]: Sure I think the form may/will change.
sullivan says, "i kind of said this already, but... i bring in examples of collage and we as a class deconstruct them and appropriate their methods"
MichaelS says, "Well, there are ignorant critiques, yes. "
ronan . o O ( master narrative unsupported by collaboration: News at 11 )
The guest says, "yea, Jeff: the key word there is critical, and people dichotomize: critical vs creative. They don't seem to understand that often to affect people, the critical is exactly the wrong way to go (I give you Al Gore in debate). Creative can be much more engaging and persuasive."
ronan nods at guest
jrice [to the guest]: and the creative can be critical - the pop art collagists/ the German photo montagists, digital sampling
Bradley thinks about "Collaboration is always about collage."
sullivan [to the guest]: "i see what you mean. lately i've been interesting in combining critical/creative, my students and i don't seem to have much trouble doing that
MichaelS says, "Which brings us to design and critique."
ronan [to the guest]: creative as all those stylistics and tropes deMan would say are central to any argumentative/critical discourse
The guest says, "yes wherever would critical be without creative? Don't you wonder why people diss this so much? I mean, what are they afraid of?"
ronan [to the guest]: rhetoric and poetic
Bradley wonders if we haven't come to his question?
Bradley shows slide 6 on the projector.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I want to push on the idea (from our email discussion) of redefining "composition" in an additive way -- the notion that we're not just talking about pen, ink, and words, but creative processes from music, art, and other things.
I don't have any problem thinking of composition in that way -- but how can we suggest to our students (and administrators?) that it's time for a redefinition of the term?
Bradley Dilger
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Bradley [to the guest]: I think I'm basically wondering the same thing as you -- what are folks so afraid of?
jrice say, "they're afraid of what is different"
The guest says, "well, that's exactly what I'm going to try to do for tomorrow. Truly. We need space for the Center I direct, and I'm thinking that this is the way I want to conceptualize it."
jrice say, "and what, on the surface, doesn't seem academic"
ronan fears fear itself, and empty bellies and emptier eyes, and especially fears living in his car again
sullivan says, "this question is related to institutional visions and desires for comp--churning out technical skills, etc, and the potential of other ways of teaching"
Bradley [to jrice]: Aw, that's too easy.
MichaelS [to jrice]: ...of what requires a wider repertoire.
jrice say, "web writing? What? That's not writing? That's just putting up pictures?"
sullivan says, "capital does not need many folks who can think critically-creatively right now"
dave says, "but we do need to teach people to read and write (I know no one's suggesting otherwise)"
sullivan says, "that's why they got rid of the second writing course requirement here a few years ago"
jrice say, "The faculty member who evaluated my teaching this semester asked: that's nice (what the students are doing) but are they writing enough words?"
The guest says, "the trick is to show that reading and writing are composing acts that share in the same kind of processes that define art and music and drama and architecture"
MichaelS [to jrice]: LOL
jrice [to dave]: way
jrice [to MichaelS]: what's that?
ronan [to jrice]: when Ulmer evaluated me he spent much time talking about the air conditioning sytem in Rolfs 114
ronan [to jrice]: it certainly was informative
MichaelS [to jrice]: Not enough words.
jrice [to ronan]: it's too cold sometimes...
dave [to ronan]: ah yes the air conditioner
Bradley [to the guest]: But art and stuff are being run out of the schools... I dunno, that seems to set us up for a fall.
sullivan says, "many of the points you guys are making --exactly why i still give a research paper assignment in every class; i teach hypertext as a different register, so to speak, of writing"
dave nods at Bradley
jrice [to sullivan]: but I don't see it as different at all
ronan [to dave]: the pedagogy of hvac seemed more importnt than the MOO essays the monsters were working on
jrice say, "how is it not writing?"
sullivan says, "this contrasting of writing styles, still including the formal, seems to satisfy admin types and also does give students some writing skills that the academy esp privileges."
The guest says, "you aren't talking about the kind of art that we see in elem schools. You have to talk about this in very practical ways that people can understand. "
Bradley [to sullivan]: Well, but I don't want to do research papers at all.
jrice [to sullivan]: but those skills don't vanish in web writing
MichaelS says, "What do students say *they* want?"
The guest says, "and you talk about *how* it connects to writing."
ronan [to dave]: hvac=heating and ventilation and air conditioning
The guest says, "and ask students later--in another term or so--how they are doing. They'll tell you."
ronan [to MichaelS]: they want an A, and how do they get it
ange [to ronan]: yes, we need to define more possibilities for humanist intervention in air conditioning.
ronan nods vigorously at ange
dave [to ronan]: yes! I learned a new aabbreviation!
The guest says, "and don't forget the air conditioning ;)"
ronan [to ange]: and who better than Ulmer to initiate that critiucal discourse ?
MichaelS [to ronan]: Yes, they (some of them) want good ol' Dave Bartholomaean academic literacy.
sullivan [to jrice]: "hypertext and research papers are both writing, but very different kinds, r.papers involve formal logical reasoning, hypertext associative reasoning, formal acad writing is argumentative, hypertexts use narrative and pattern as well...i have a whole list of differences that i go through in my classes
The guest says, "I'm serious about this. You *can* explain this. But you do have to be smart about it."
jrice [to MichaelS]: or 'you used this instead of which'
ronan says, "they do, so it is our task to tell them an A doesn't equal what they were told for the last 12 years"
The corporate guest has disconnected.
jrice [to sullivan]: hmmm not sure about that. you can't make an argument in hypertext? don't agree
Bradley [to the guest]: Well, but how?
The guest says, "they know that an A back then equals what they did on a test. Those days are gone."
MichaelS [to jrice]: Where?
The disconnected corporate guest decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home.
[ 6:34 pm ]
ronan disagrees vigorously with sullivan determination of what web writing/hypertext is
jrice [to MichaelS]: everywhere..but most immediate even here
The guest says, "and then you ask them questions like why they choose a medium and for what rhetorical purpose. You know: you ask them to think."
The guest says, "and you know what? They can!"
ronan [to the guest]: it's too hard, this thinking thing, can't you just tell me what I need to do to get an A
sullivan says, "i would not agree that the same kind of thinking and writing that goes into research paper writing goes into hypertext, not the type i teach anyway. i don't find students getting to wrestle with interpreting texts, media and critical, and then forming their own arguments over a stretch of pages, happening in hypertext. i *do* want to have my students practice those skills, as much as i want them to do the tripped out associative-political thing i design for the hypertexts"
Bradley grins at ronan.
Bradley needs to go vote.
dave says, "half an hour, Bradley!"
ronan [to Bradley]: you have 26 minutes left
jrice say, "vote for me"
MichaelS leans on an exit pole.
ronan [to Bradley]: Vote Green!
The guest says, "and you locate this in a language: rehearsal, making, un/making, audience, rhetoric, poetic . . ."
dave says, "I voted for jrice"
sullivan says, "arugment is very different in the kind of hypertexts i teach, one type of voice among many..."
jrice [to dave]: thank you, dave. I'll make a good president
Bradley says, "Thanks everyone, especially Michael and Kathleen. Take care."
ronan votes for Dave, like in the mOvie
Bradley sits quietly, without emitting any smells, on the rug beside ronan.
Bradley says, "ack"
Bradley stands up from the rug.
The guest says, "vote well, Bradley"
Bradley sinks into the overstuffed couch between jrice.
jrice say, "vote often"
ronan [to jrice]: he ain't Irish
The guest says, "yes, especially vote often in FLA."
Bradley idles: vote
The guest says, "I love that: he ain't Irish."
sullivan says, "i'd love to hear more about how any of you *do* teach hypertexts involving argument"
ronan voted and thereby encouraged them
sullivan says, "seriously""
The guest says, "sullivan, you should talk to my colleague here, Sean Williams. That's his schtick."
sullivan [to ronan]: "how do you define hypertext writing?
ronan [to MichaelS]: beforew we run out of time, can we discuss collaboration in terms of how myka problematizes it ?
sullivan [to the guest]: "any references you can point me to by him?
jrice say, "what is about argumentation that you don't see it supported by hypertext?"
dave nods to ronan's question
jrice [to ronan]: yes
The guest says, "oh that's good: problematizing."
ronan [to the guest]: collaboration + ideology, as you put it in CCC essay
MichaelS says, "We problematize it by arguing too much?"
ronan laughs
jrice say, "There is so much more arguing in your essays than here in the MOO"
The guest says, "sullivan, just email him: sean@clemson.edu Tell him kathleen said hey."
sullivan [to jrice]: "it's not that hypertext doesn't or can't support argument. i'm talking about formal academic essay writing in which there is a logical organization of point 1, point 2, point 3, etc that is written so that it seems inevitable that the final conclusion/assertion is where these points lead
jrice [to sullivan]: again, why doesn't this exist in hypertext? There isn't organization? Or some kind of claim? Or support? I'll direct you to student essays that are arguments
ronan [to jrice]: yes, I agree, the argument in the essays is the fruitful part
The guest says, "well in an essay (even in Kairos) we tend to take up a point and argue it out. My job is to help Michael see the error of his ways. Not such a difficult task, after all."
sullivan says, "i basically teach what greg ulmer lays out, as he did in the first course i took with him at any rate--contrasting formal academic essay writing with electracy. he talks about this all over the place in _heuretics_"
sullivan [to jrice]: "well, i don
ronan [to sullivan]: my condolences
dave says, "Michael, the gloves are off"
MichaelS says, "Oh, no, I agree completely. What She (who must be obeyed) said."
jrice [to the guest]: is it because we're in the MOO?
The guest says, "here we're sort of here together, to present this sort of common identity. I think if you asked the right question, we'd argue plenty ;)"
sullivan [to jrice]: "well, i don't use the hypertext form for student essays that are of this type. the hypertexts i design are integrating other voices much more thoroughly, e.g., dreams, image deconstruction, writing with the non-dominant hand, etc
jrice [to sullivan]: again, I don't see how anything isn't an argument. Even Heuretics is making an argument
ronan [to the guest]: we snipe at each other like this in RL too
ronan nods at jrice's assertion
The guest says, "ask Michael how important he thinks medium is. Or ask him if email is a genre?"
jrice [to MichaelS]: is email a genre
sullivan [to jrice]: "heuretics is making an argument. but i do think we can distinguish for ex, a transcript of a dream i had last night from a formal argument
ronan [to MichaelS]: is email a genre or a medium?
MichaelS says, "What I think is that what we do in print we couldn't do on email."
dave says, "making it a genre?"
The guest says, "say what?"
MichaelS says, "Email doesn't have a visual dimension yet. Not one susceptible to design by us."
The guest says, "but we do that on email and then migrate it to print. That's what he wants me to say, so I will have said his point!"
jrice [to MichaelS]: it does if you use an email client like Netscape
MichaelS says, "Yes. It has to be done in print."
The guest says, "sure it does, these days. It's not about the visual, anyway. We're talking collab. That is email."
MichaelS says, "You brung it up."
jrice say, "with wireless email coming (or here) it will be more collaborative (maybee)"
[ 6:44 pm ]
The guest says, "he thinks arguing is bad manners"
dave says, "do you ever leave your works on email in progress--still under collaboration, not yet ended by print (ie the last page)?"
sullivan says, "i was thinking about what y'all say about collaboration and the electronic, a few years ago i helped guest edit a journal special issue (c&c) with two other women, we did the whole process over email, your fragments in the book essay reminded me of the way we spoke in these conversations"
ronan [to the guest]: talking in the voice of the Other again?
The guest says, "sometimes, sure. I like the Other. And yes, there are conversations that don't end. Arguments, too ;)"
ronan nods at the endless argument
MichaelS says, "the ongoing..."
The guest says, "yes, connect it to the ongoing says she who must be obeyed "
The guest says, "hmm"
The guest says, "email is like the common thread"
ronan [to the guest]: is talking in/as/with the Other a pre-form of collaboration, a collage that sidesteps multi-vociality through citational means ?
MichaelS says, "It takes us back to borrowing,bootleggings,bricolage."
ronan nods at brics tossed into lists
MichaelS [to ronan]: I love it when you talk dirty.
ronan says, "isn't the bricoleur always already a provocateur ?"
MichaelS says, "Nope. Sorry."
dave nods at ronan's cool question anyway
The guest says, "email is the ongoing discussion from which other texts spin out, from which we don't leave, and to which we return"
ronan . o O ( fuckshitpisscocksucker: ronan said )
ronan [to MichaelS]: why not?
The guest says, "isn't all talk citational, even if unaware?"
jrice [to the guest]: or isnt' everything citational; already always cited?
The guest says, "isn't citation one source of multi-vocality?"
ronan [to MichaelS]: at least provoking the reader, in terms of what myka calls _remind readers of their own contribution to meaning made _
MichaelS [to ronan]: No, I agreee. Pro/vocative in voicing out of tune.
ronan nods
The guest says, "no, hmm, everything isn't always citational, but potential."
ronan . o O ( collaborative texts:plural commons )
The guest says, "ah, plural commons. utopia"
The guest says, "that's the place."
MichaelS says, " That's commonses, to you."
dave has to go but has really enjoyed this
jrice say, "We're ending the two hour block so I'd like to thank Kathleen and Michael for taking time to MOO with us"
dave applauds loudly
MichaelS says, "A pleasure."
The guest says, "thank you all. This was fun. "
jrice applauds
ronan [to the guest]: at least in the way you *cite* dr. gregory ulmer, but your concept of the commons seems more bound by the aesthetic/poesia
ronan says, "oops,"
ronan says, "speaking too late, again"
sullivan says, "thanks y'all"
jrice say, "We can continue on email this week...and bring in more voices of course"
The guest says, "we got it ronan"
egarcia hands everyone a guinness/espresso
dave has disconnected.
ronan stands up from the rug.
ange says, "yes, thanks michael and kathleen, this has been great!"
The guest says, "yes, see you online"
ronan hops up and down and runs around in glee
MichaelS says, "interface wit ya later."
egarcia has disconnected.
The guest has disconnected.
MichaelS has disconnected.