Computers and Writing Working Group
Fall 2000 Virtual Colloquium Series
Session log
Mark Amerika
University of Colorado-Boulder
[log started Mon Dec 11 13:01:37 2000 EST] Participants: ronan, Lee, jrice, glue, amerika, and joey ronan turns the colloquium recorder on. glue gestures in a greeting-like manner ronan [to amerika]: thanks for coming amerika says, "glue, I was just writing about you!" glue say, "of course you were!" amerika says, "that's all I do!" glue say, "you can't help it" ronan says, "writing about glue is better than writing about rubber" amerika says, "it's a viral thing" glue sticks like ronan [to amerika]: you were a student of glue's while you were her ? amerika says, "always have apperciated your stick-to-it-iveness" ronan says, "here, I meant" amerika says, "yep" glue say, "her who? deicitically challenged?" glue say, "oops I meant (how do you spell deixis?)" ronan apologizes for his gendered mistyping amerika says, "my MOO typing is ....." amerika says, "btw, the tape is rolling" amerika says, "The Supremes are making a comeback..." ronan says, "well, I turned the recorder on, and I apologize profusely for the small turnout, but I have a few questions, as I assume glue and lee and jrice do as well" amerika says, "Tony Scalia on lead vocals..." glue say, "turnout is relative" ronan says, "would that be the Supremes, with Tony Scalia, or the ross-less Su[premes, or ..." amerika says, "yes, I have stories about trunout" glue say, "sometimes things don't turn out at all" amerika says, "imagine if only eight justices turned up" ronan wanted an Irish voting pattern turmnout: early and often amerika says, "and they evenly split" glue as Lacan would have predicted ronan says, "we could all write on MOO notes our ballot choices and send them to the AmerikaFor President committtee" glue say, "we will all be working for AmeriKa eventually" jrice [to amerika]: when do you graduate from UF? amerika says, "it's a sublimmminanble plot" ronan says, "I have a question or two on a slide, and I bet others will jump in as well" jrice say, "excuse me, "did"" amerika says, "1978!" ronan says, "one never graduates from UF" amerika says, "frisbee on the plaza" jrice say, "still there" amerika says, "krishna lunches" jrice say, "still there as well" ronan [to amerika]: robbe-grillet was here as well, right, and you studied with him and glue amerika says, "I took all of r-b's classes" amerika says, "yes, imagine that combo!" ronan ponders the permutations possible amerika says, "Sexual Blood" glue say, "robbe-grillet is glue spelled backwards" ronan [to amerika]: and you currently *teach* at Colorado ? amerika says, "just appointed to the faculty here" ronan says, "or are you an artist-in-residence" amerika says, "notch one another one up for UF" ronan congratulates MA on that appointment glue notices the deictic thing happening: "here"? amerika says, "glue, could you use deictic in a complete sentence that telle me what is yr talking about?!" glue say, "aHA!" amerika feels like he's back in school. [ 1:11 pm ] glue say, "tsk tsk" amerika wonders if he left. amerika flashbacks. glue say, "deixis refers to shifters, pronouns etc that are relative to context" ronan loads the slide c3 in the BlowUp. ronan says, "well, the krishna food is still free" glue say, "If I say I it ..." ronan says, "so, I guess I will start by showing a clip of your writing" ronan drops a BlowUp. ronan shows the slide "c1" on the BlowUp. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The first thing net artists must get over, is that their work, as commodity, or product, has value in and of itself. Sure, it has some, but to buy into that way of thinking is to take their 'network life-practice' and apply it to industrial-era economic thinking, the thinking that says 'I made this work of art, I am a genius, therefore this work of art has been created by a genius who should be compensated as such, so, here it is, this is how much it costs, now you can buy it.' Web artists who are seriously considering offering their work to the public so as to ignite a speculative market on web-based art, should first acquaint themselves with the Internet economy they hope will support them. If they are serious about opening up a new kind of speculative art market for their kind of net-distributed work (and they are all-too-serious, this much is obvious), they must focus their attention on how the Internet economy acts like a chaotic, yet self-correcting, financial market. Like it or not, the old-fashioned marketplace for goods and services, behaving like a financial market, is in constant adaptation-mode, seeking out the next area of speculative market growth, ready to immerse itself in a continuous exchange of speculative knowledge or, what I like to call, seductive knowledge. In order for seductive knowledge about your work to have its desired effect in the Internet economy (to create wealth), you must first understand the business of offering yourself to clients, collectors, suitors, johns (assuming you consider this a form of prostitution). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * amerika says, "Oh, right. I'm always playing the deictic." amerika says, "like I say, I was just writing about you!" ronan says, "the commodity is gone, now we are in relational markets?" ronan says, "or is the value a value-added of celebrity ?" ronan shows the slide "c2" on the BlowUp. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Amerika, where can we go with the idea of seductive knowledge? How, exactly, does seductive knowledge drive the Net-Art-Economy, and what can we do (create/destroy/configure/reconfigure) with such seduction as the Net expands? is seduction at the heart of the new media ? and is seduction different from weaving? how is a designwriter different from a seductress? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * glue [to amerika]: right! but the you could be anybody except we assume it means me jrice say, "is "seduction knowledge" related to Lyotard's "libidnal economy"?" ronan wondered that too amerika says, "seductive knowledge circulating in a libdinal economy, I like that..." amerika says, "perhaps that's where the value-added comes in" glue [to amerika]: but the first meaning of economy in the passage is literally market-based,no? amerika says, "partly" amerika says, "but it's also fiction-based" ronan says, "and your essay seesm to want to build a market where there is NOT one now" ronan says, " a fictive market that comes to fruition through the *presence* of more and more web-based art ? is that what you are calling for?" glue say, "in addition, you use marketing strategies and rhetoric but in a fictional mode?" glue say, "for example, "grammatron" was everywhere even before it was anywhere..." amerika says, "yes, speculative fictions intervening in the marketplace of ideas" joey arrives. amerika says, "greenspan says we live in a conceptual economy" ronan waves to joey joey waves back ronan [to amerika]: in terms of Black Ice, you offer fragments on AltX? speculative marketing? how could Paypal, or digicash, make that offering more substantial? should it? amerika says, "and yet ronan is right, there really is no market there now" glue [to amerika]: part of the idea is literal in terms of how to make a living via a web-based institution? [ 1:22 pm ] glue ponders the history of patronage ronan nods at glue's point, and wonders how literal the market will become without more works, a chicken-egg conundrum? amerika says, "yes, how to design a life-practice" glue say, "the original hypertext idea was a franchise network" jrice say, "or a question of impatience - how come we can't make a living yet - a question similiar to the hype that .com is dead...but the Web (as we know it) hasn't been a long time in existence" amerika says, "to literally *make* a living" ronan forgot to make his franchise payments glue say, "everyone put everything online and then charged according to use" amerika says, "or everyone giving everything away for free online and using each other to survive?" glue [to amerika]: could you relate these economics to avant-pop? ronan [to amerika]: yes, free banners and free links and free free free...how do we move beyond such *freedom* towards markets for art amerika says, "ronan, we do this by *maming history* -- something we are exploring here CU in my new seminar is how to *make art history*" ronan nods amerika says, "makinghistoryUP" ronan says, "like before, only better" joey says, "new & improved" amerika says, "yes, glue, it's a-p" jrice [to amerika]: this is making art history through institutional practices or something else as well...? glue say, "the principle is that what was avant in print is pop in web" amerika says, "a-p in that in that it uses the language of advertising to distribute new models of writing -- texting the environment" glue would like to hear more about Mr AmeriKa's class ronan [to amerika]: has that been successful with AltX Network ? amerika says, "constructing an emergent hyperrhetorical language for the coming community" jrice say, "I'm interested in approaching the Web from "how to" positions...I do it in my own classes...can you talk more about how to make art history?" glue say, "the poetics of slogan, logo, and happiness?" amerika says, "the first thing we do is look for collaborators on the outside" ronan says, "it seesm like the electronic reprints are a how-to for hyperrhetorical constructions of new markets" amerika says, "sort of like your colloquium, but " amerika says, "we approach it as an online exhibition" amerika says, "creative exhibitionism" joey says, "for $$$$ ?" ronan nods and takes off his clothes glue declares and proves that this colloquium is the most important venue in contemporary globalization of the episteme! jrice say, "so it's taking the old format of the gallery online?" amerika says, "so the work is much more dependent on a collaborative-aut horing environment, a networked team operation" jrice say, "and becoming an exhibitionist in all meanings of the word?" ronan [to glue]: and yet where are the legions of Ulmerians at this epistemic break ? joey's retread just blew out jrice nods to himself in answer to ronan glue is reminded of the Haiku institution in Japan amerika says, "it's not a repurposing of the gallery scene" ronan [to amerika]: is AltX collaborative in that way? glue say, "the great Haiku poets went from town to town and met with locals who were amateru poets" glue say, "amateur" amerika says, "exhibit A could be the justice system and how we pick and choose candidates for Art History" ronan [to amerika]: do the authors propose, or do you ask, or how does ALTX determine what's part of AltX amerika says, "amateur = lover" joey says, "and they learned form the amateurs?" glue [to ronan]: the happy few are here! joey says, "from" ronan nods at that to glue [ 1:33 pm ] glue say, "plus the log" ronan [to amerika]: Art History, like any history, is always an act of both retrospection and introspection. should our introspective gauges be reset ? amerika says, "yes, I think we need to recalibrate" glue say, "the Haiku analogy was that the locals also were poets, not spectators or consumers of poetry" ronan says, "does the web change how we should look at Art Through The Ages, beyond merely a new access to primary texts, beyond merely a new way to read the ART ???" jrice [to glue]: and today the casual users of the Web become the poets - but are also consumers as well joey says, "right, the active participants in the haiku -- so perhaps the Great and the amateur blurred?" amerika says, "maybe not the way we look at art, but the way we play with it" amerika says, "the we question it" amerika says, "the way we question it" ronan plays with PlasticMan, in the way Steve Katz rewired me to read Plasticman amerika says, "investigate it" amerika says, "my students would want to know is this MOO session art..." glue say, "the point of the avant-garde having been that art is for everybody, not for specialists, meaning art as a practice" joey says, "are we playing to get paid? is the distinction between playing and working to dissappear?" amerika says, "exactly, glue" amerika says, "network practice is an issue here" joey says, "Yes, but doesn't the avant-garde usually wind up in the Salon?" ronan [to glue]: so will a new, democratic experience of 'Art" occur simply because the Louvre is online? I wonder how the web will change Art's Greatest Hits ? amerika says, "joey, that's we why go avant-pop" jrice say, "yesterday's avant garde is today's mainstream" joey says, "AHHHH" ronan [to amerika]: network practice? how so? glue say, "then it's avant-pop, then Pops" glue say, "hence "grandma-tron"" amerika says, "ha!" joey says, "then top 'o the Pops" amerika says, "grammy is a kind of cyborg-mommy?" ronan says, "it's Xmas time, so maybe there is a Box Set of Art, available through the newtork, we could all download" glue [to amerika]: so do you see grammatron et al "this is how to write now"? amerika says, "ronan, network practice in that..." amerika says, "we try and steer clear of repurposing old media into new media" ronan [to amerika]: yes. ok. amerika says, "and attempt to use the network as its own unique artistic medium" ronan says, "that brings me to my second question" ronan shows the slide "c3" on the BlowUp. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Especially given the conceptual complexity of new media interfaces that integrate metafiction, hypertext, mp3, streaming media, VRML, dynamic HTML, Java, Shockwave and other programs, one can not help but wonder if this economy of ideas we keep hearing about isn't on the cusp of ushering in an e-Renaissance of post-literary writing. What are the technological possibilities of a new *style* of writing scripts and sounds and viusals create? Where should this new media be moving towards? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * amerika says, "#2!" ronan says, "ok, #2" Lee finds this interesting but has to get back to work Lee waves ronan says, "sorry for the bad grammar of that slide" Lee steps quietly out into the hallway. Aquifer. (Whatever!) ronan waves adios to lee joey says, "Whither the new media?" ronan says, "is javascript and mp3 and flash +writing- ?" joey says, "So many technologies, so little time!" ronan says, "plus or minus or simply new,improved,different" amerika says, "storyboarding" amerika says, "mystoryboarding?" glue say, "snowboarding" [ 1:43 pm ] ronan [to amerika]: yes, I guess that is the question, yours, as well as the conceptual "web users" amerika says, "as long as you wear a helmet!" glue say, "Never!" amerika says, "you'll never learn!" glue puzzles ronan says, "I'm thinking of how phon:e:me is written in sound, and the liner notes are both addendum and primary to the work " joey says, "perhaps these are to be layered in with other types of writing" amerika says, "yes, ronan, it's primary" glue wonders to what extent "art" or "aesthetics" is an international "language"? ronan [to amerika]: then maybe the question is how sound/design/etc are supplemental to soemthing? is the supplement the write/right way toi think of new media art ? joey says, "stratigraphy" ronan smiles at joey's stratified pun amerika says, "yes, as in this MOO jam session" amerika says, "with joey on lead straticaster" ronan laughs joey says, "from machine code to poetry, all layered together and then you fire it up and see what happens!" amerika says, "glue, you mean art as the un-utterable esperanto?" glue [to amerika]: just that when your work is viewed internationally the understanding is possible because of the "art" frame or aesthetic design? glue say, "and that this could work for everybody..." ronan [to glue]: can it really be esperanto while some have flash and others have winamp and others don't ? does the techne get distorted by the technology of the end-user ? amerika says, "yes, I think this is especially true with net art" joey says, "perhaps an international, but untranslatable language (or rather infinitely translatable?)" amerika says, "the speed with which this understanding" takes place makes for a wild ride!" glue [to ronan]: the disparities in tools is temporary ronan [to joey]: unsublatable due to network bandwidth? joey says, "you gotta get the plugins ..." jrice wonders if another "esperanto" isn't just art, but pop culture in general..the way Marcus talks about Elvis in Dead Elvis glue say, "unsubletabobble" ronan [to glue]: true, but those disparities are international in flavor, clustered around issues of class amerika says, "unsubtlemakeable" joey says, "think or international, rather than supernational" glue say, "double esperanto" amerika says, "to go, please." glue say, "Japan, for instance" amerika says, "make it a triple." glue say, "the packaging IS the thing itself" ronan says, "the elvis reference point seems workable, but elvis had a label, whereas phon:e;me, to give but one example, is on a network, and unless walker Art cCenter has changed, the A&R rep isn't the same " amerika says, "the thing-in-itself?" jrice [to ronan]: no Elvis is now everywhere - beyond the music ronan says, "maybe the point is elvis is everywhere because there is cash to be made from elvisania" joey says, "I see him, over by the water cooler" glue say, "another lesson of the avant-garde was/is that one cannot just invent a form" ronan says, "elvis cooked me dinner last night and ..." amerika says, "beyond the music,as jrice says" jrice [to joey]: no that's me. i'm thirsty amerika says, "isn't that TV show?" glue say, "one must also invent an institution" jrice say, "behind the music" [ 1:53 pm ] ronan [to jrice]: VH1s complicated ass joke amerika says, "yes, glue, that's why I've accepted this new gig..." joey says, "is avant-pop too fleeting to be commodified or canonized?" glue say, "the long path through the institutions!" amerika says, "yes, joey -- avant-pop is dead -- beyond the music..." glue say, "er, madhouses..." ronan [to amerika]: but ALTX is a way to construct provsional institutions for the advancement of digerati culture ronan says, "or am I wrong?" ronan says, "the polemical nature of your regular column seesm to me to point towards culture-building" amerika says, "yes, Alt-X is an institution" glue say, "as is the internet" joey says, "and the entrepreneur is really the undertaker?" amerika says, "a madhouse of culture-building" ronan says, "the prison-house of culture, the institution" joey says, "HEHE" amerika says, "..is the conecptual artist" amerika says, "conceptual" glue [to amerika]: are you interested in the "meme" notion? amerika says, "who, meme?" glue say, "memes being idea that replicate proliferate and self-disseminate" jrice say, "this session seems more punceptual than conceptual" amerika says, "a walking talking breathing meme" amerika says, "we played with this in phon:e:me" ronan [to jrice]: a benfit of MOO culture is the high laugh/noise ratio amerika says, "read only me-memes is the chorus" ronan got that joke in phon:e:me along with a few others amerika says, "why do you ask?" glue say, "all those me's, looks deictic to meme" amerika says, "exactly, which is one of the reasons I was just writing about yoU!" glue [to amerika]: behold! joey says, "the meme frees ideas from pesky material conditions" glue's secret plan is to use this session as an article on deixis ronan says, "is there an application form online for yo U" ronan stands up from the rug. ronan sits quietly, without emitting any smells, on the rug. ronan says, "then I guess my persian rug will get into the article ?" amerika says, "glue, can we publish it on Alt-X at ebr?" glue [to ronan]: yes but it won't be in Persia joey says, "depends: is it hand or machine-made?" glue say, "about the meme..." ronan [to joey]: everything I make is machine made amerika says, "yes?" joey says, "the hand is a machine" joey says, "HEHE" glue say, "WYSIWYG" ronan [to joey]: at hand, as in Heidegger's technological condition amerika says, "the meme is WYSIWIG?" joey . o O ( yessssss ) ronan [to amerika]: tell us about CU and what you hope to do inside an institution? rewrite the History of Art? what else ? glue's secret plan is to become confused amerika says, "the Supremes are also WYSIWIG" jrice say, "that would be a mess..." ronan says, "Tony Scalia is what you see when you try to get Diana Ross ?" jrice say, "ah Supre(meme)" joey says, "yeah, and is there a difference for you between doing art and doing the history of art (a la Deleuze's "history as ass-fuck")" glue say, "yes, more about the experience of teaching at CU, where you also were a student" amerika says, "ah" [ 2:03 pm ] amerika says, "actually, I was never a student here (one class for fun)" amerika says, "did the Grad stint at Brown" glue say, "right, but you were a beohemian there" glue say, "bohemian" glue say, "there" amerika says, "yes, the life of a rhizomatic meme" glue say, "as in 'here'" ronan . o O ( neohemian ) amerika says, "an affiliate of the franchise" amerika says, "but at CU..." ronan [to amerika]: and the franchise fees, those were assessed by the Brown Machine ? amerika says, "everything is just beginning" amerika says, "from scratch" jrice say, "you're in the English dept?" amerika says, "Fine Arts" glue say, "fine-ance" amerika says, "3-5 years ago that would have been impossible" ronan says, "exactly how Fine are they?" ronan nods at that ronan nods at that timeline of impossibility, he meant amerika says, "yes, glue has it, that's our mission, fine-ance-ing" joey says, "shambles" jrice say, "how much of your teaching deals with theory - i.e. hypertext theory?" ronan [to amerika]: praxis or theory ronan says, "oops, rice beat me to the punch" joey says, "producing revolutionaries ..." amerika says, "theory is becoming more and more integrated into the digital arts curriculum I am developing" amerika says, "critical media production in a studio wworkshop environment" amerika says, "your assignment today is to "make history"" ronan [to amerika]: are you teaching both undergrads/grads? jrice say, "you said you came from Brown, I'm wondering how much of that "old school" has rubbed off on you - since you are so into the multimedia aspects of hypertext more than those associated with Brown (Coover/Landow)" amerika says, ""make history up"" amerika says, "The seminar is called:" amerika says, "Histories of Internet Art: Fictions and Factions" ronan says, "cool title" amerika says, "yes both undergrads and grads" ronan says, "and the factions would be those *Other* hypertextualists from Brown ?" amerika says, "btw, I'm looking for potential grads" ronan is looking for potential committee members amerika says, "yes, well, jr, it's rubbed off in interesting ways..." glue [to amerika]: you being an expert on potential graduation ronan laughs amerika says, "first, there's teaching with technology" amerika says, "GPL and Coover do that quite well" joey reboots his pencil amerika says, "and then there's using the Web as an edu-tool in the Total Learning Environment and GPL is quite good at that too" ronan . o O ( George P Landow or General Public License ) glue has to dip on account of behindedness ronan [to amerika]: Genral Public Licenses are excellent for devloiping edu-ware glue say, "gods bless Amerika" [ 2:13 pm ] jrice knew that was coming glue is glad to fulfill expectations amerika says, "may the force be with you " ronan applauds Amerika for spending time with us joey says, "it's for the good of the Nation ..." amerika bows to the glue-man. ronan says, "thnaks for participating in the cwwg Fall 2000 Colloquium" jrice thanks Amerika as well joey says, "it's over? WAAAAHHHHH!" amerika says, "my pleasure" glue say, "also known as the theory and practice of deixis" amerika says, "G-ville sounds like a great place to be these days." glue say, "where the there is here" ronan says, "It was great to read your stuff/ view your stuff/ listen to your stuff" glue say, "except without the t" amerika says, "don't forget to read the upcoming interview with glue at Beehive" ronan [to amerika]: G-ville Rocks, for a cow town glue say, "introduced by" amerika says, "moi" glue say, "lui" amerika says, "the tape is still rolling" amerika says, "final decision at mp3.com" glue say, "let's be in touch" ronan says, "if youyou will get sent a copy of the transcript" glue have disconnected. amerika says, "yes, please, let's..." amerika says, "thanks ronan" amerika says, "thanks jr" amerika says, "thanks all" amerika says, "bye for now" jrice say, "thank you" ronan says, "ok, thank you" joey says, "you're welcome" amerika has disconnected. [log closed]